AI Made the Music. He Wrote the Words. Who's the Artist?

He writes every word. AI makes the music. So who's the artist?

J.S. Clockwise has written poetry for decades, always in rhyme and meter. He self-published a book of poems, and for about a year now he's been turning them into songs with generative AI and releasing the music.

Nick and Jason talk with him about:
- Judging every lyric by whether it sounds like something Leonard Cohen would say
- Why making an AI song means dozens, sometimes hundreds, of versions
- Giving the machine credit for the melody while keeping the words his own
- A fan's autograph request, and a stranger who was sure a song was about her
- His answer to people who say AI music isn't real music

Follow Mosaic Minds Podcast for more conversations like this.

Mosaic Minds Podcast: https://mosaicmindspodcast.com

J.S. Clockwise (guest):
Spotify — https://open.spotify.com/artist/2sxTYK1SCTJ6ojjHj2CpRf
Poetry book, "Forgive This Brief Intrusion" (as Jacob Sheber), Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Forgive-Brief-Intrusion-Jacob-Sheber/dp/B0F5LKRZ3N

Transcript

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Welcome, J.S. Clockwise. tell us little bit about your your your music. I don't want to I know if you wanna call it a profession, hobby, whatever it is, but however you describe it, go ahead and explain that to us. It is a lifelong hobby and it started off as, you know, I've always kind of liked writing poetry and I I like to write a different kind of poetry than, you know, what the academics of the Ivy Tower Towers like. For me, it's all about rhyme rhyme and meter. And I kind of got bit by the bug as an undergrad at college. I was kind of forced into a creative writing class where I was, you know assigned to write poetry and and anything. that like that where you have a a deadline and you know you end up turning in some absolute garbage, but you know you get your grade. But like I said, it it kind of spurred something in me. It was something that I enjoyed doing. And and I it was something I always did quietly in my in my alone time, just joting down some some words and and putting them together. And like I said, you know, For me, it's it's about rhyme and meter. That's that's what I enjoy. I enjoy that type of thing. and then, you know, about a year ago, I this this Generative AI came about where we could turn those poems into songs, and because I like to write in rhyme and meter, they naturally fit into into to the music and the songs that I was creating with with these. poems that I had been accumulating over decades, really blew me away and I was quite happy with it. And, you know, I'd always kind of had a song in my head when I was writing these things, but being able to, you know, put it into the machine and and have the machine deliver, you know, pretty close to what I had imagined was super exciting and and I've been all in on that ever since. what who were some of your inspirations growing up, whether it be in poetry or music or or both? so poetry and music, I would put my absolute hero is a man by the name of Leonard Cohen. I don't know if you're familiar yeah, Awesome. Yeah. Absolutely. if you're familiar with him, everybody's at least familiar with the song, Hallelujah, right? Sure. and to me, he is the benchmark, right? I I he's the the target at which I aim and miss every time. Because when I listen to a Leonard Cohen song or a Leonard Cohen lyric, simultaneously humbled. and inspired to to do my own writing. And so that is, you know, somebody I I listened to all the time. and then and then when he passed in in 2015, I was devastated. I thought, well, who's gonna who's gonna write this stuff? And so I really started filling that void that, you know, I I was going to miss Leonard Cohen, well I was going to summon him as as best I could with my own writing. And that's kind of one of the how I judge the lyrics that I come up with, right? I decide if it's good or bad based on, you know, I'll I'll take a something I've written and I'll read it back in my mind kind of in his his voice. And I ask myself, does it make sense? Does this sound like something that Leonard Cohen would s would say? And if it does, I'm I'm onto something. And if it's if it doesn't fit, it I chuck it in the garbage. How did you stumble upon well first of all, let's be l let's let everybody know that the lyrics you write yourself, right? Like 'cause you you said you like Absolutely. and then how did you stumble upon this that whichever AI platform it is that used to kind of put music to the lyrics? so I had I'm not sure how he stumbled it. It was kind of just in the air. It was something that was going on and it was the way that AI was headed. And I had published my own book of poetry. I I'd I'd kind of been working on it, like I said, you know, for years. I don't have I didn't have a lot, but I always thought to myself, well, if I get enough, I'll put it in a book and then put it out there. And I did that last May. I I I released a book called Forgive This Brief Intrusion. and it had a record of all the poets poems I had written over the over the years. And I I kind of put that out there and you know it's self-published poetry and you know a few friends and family buy it and and it kind of just sits there. it was it it felt good doing it. It was a an accomplishment. But then I had Yeah. these I still had these poems and I thought I just need a better better way to my words, these lyrics, out to people because I enjoy it and I I you don't know but you you wonder and you hope that, you know, maybe somebody else will connect with it and and enjoy it as well. Yeah, so so I play the guitar and I sing, but I enjoy singing more than I enjoy playing the guitar. And the reason that I originally started to learn the guitar was because I wanted to be able to write some songs. I picked the wrong instrument, of course. I should have like learned the piano or something like that. But nevertheless, I totally understand what you're where you're coming from. And I've used a I've used a couple of those platforms myself. we actually created our a theme song for the show. off of one of those platforms. But I can't say I wrote the lyrics. I just kinda had it do the whole gambit, you know. But I think that's really cool that you're putting the two together. So you still have the creativity side and really there's still creativity to the to the AI music side of it as well. Yeah, people dismiss it as you just push a button and it just spits it out and it Yeah. is way more complex than that. it's especially you know, I've had the I've been living with these poems for forever and ever. So I have an idea in my mind of of what they could and should sound like if if it if they get turned into music. And so it is listening to dozens, if not hundreds of different versions and and dialing in and getting it right. because I really want I really want the music to serve the words. For me it's it's all about the lyrics. I when I listen to music, and this is one thing I've noticed, you know, surrounding this whole debate about AI generative music, one thing I I think we we often miss is that there's different types of listeners, right? There's listeners like me who listen for the words, for the lyrics. I connect with the words. The the the music itself is is sort of window And I know there's the opposite. There's people who will listen to a song and you know, get into the music and the beat and whatnot. And the lyrics it right over their head, they're not paying attention. And there's not a right way or a wrong way. There's just different ways to approach it. And so the you know, for me it's it's like I said, it's all about about the words and and That's what's really important to me. And the words are all mine. think the great thing about us is we don't really have a a niche. We will talk to with anyone that has an eclectic story and I think you definitely have that 'cause you cross cross populate in in different Have have you ever heard the song Edmund Fitzgerald? Yeah. Gordon Lightfoot, the sinking of the Edmund Fitz- Fitzgerald. Of course, I live in Michigan. That's almost like the state the state anthem for crying out loud. And I I went to school up at Lake Superior State University. So of Nice. course, yes. I know that's kind of random and you fit more that question than I had anticipated, but what I will say is is that there kind of gives a small snippet of telling a story, rhyming, and kind of putting it together. So I'm not saying that's your style. I'm just saying that song kind of came to my mind as a random song and you have more connection to that region. Talk to us a little bit about what gives you the emphasis or what gives you the focus to do a certain song topic. And then I got a follow-up question after you unveil that one for us. So when I start w start writing and I I can't name whatever this thing is inside me that that compels me to write and it is a a compulsion and I will get in an I I'll get an idea for for a poem or a song and it doesn't let go of me. It kind of seizes me and I become a a little bit O C D on it and and so that's that that's the process is is I I dig into it and I start laboring over the words and and and trying different things to make them work. Sometimes it it it goes quickly. sometimes it just it's almost as if I'm receiving something from the spirit or God or whatever. Something is is being channeled through me. Other times it's it's hard work, it's a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. but you know, once it I get into it, it it it won't let me go until until I've I've completed it. I don't know if that answered your question. I kind of lost track a little bit on that. Yeah, it absolutely does. It kinda it kinda shows a basis of a starting point of what has has that. So what I'm fascinated by this new technology, and I'm a probably a very low score on a ten scale zero to ten as far as understanding it. But what I think is interesting is sometimes you can unpack the combination of genre and voice or a combination of two artists that you like. So for instance, I know that sounds weird, but I like Eric Clapton and Tom Petty. You can have one style and one voice and kind of merge that together. Talk to me specifically about what makes your lyrics unique. to you and it's almost like I don't even necessarily need to know that you've written it per se. I know that it's maybe your style or your stamp, what's your calling card as far as as what you do musically with that platform. So rhyme and meter, I try to avoid trite rhymes, right? you know, I last thing the world needs is another rock and roll song that rhymes driving fifty-five and staying alive and all that, right? I try to pack a lot into into it word economy. Try to try to say a lot with with as few words as possible. And again, my my My hero Leonard Cohen, he was the master at that. And I I hope to one day to get anywhere near that. But that is, you know, my my stamp is the depth of the lyric, the way it flows, the sound of the of the words together. I pay attention to how how the words in in the song sound together. For instance, I have a song called Juliet. And if you look listen to the word Juliet, it's got that ooh sound through it. And That was a kind of an experiment when I wrote that because I I tried to continue that that ooh sound all the way through. And if you listen to it, you'll pick up there might be some funny word choices in there because I was leaning really heavily into into making it have that so that might be it. I I I think if you're the calling card would be lyrical depth. And and I think of artists like Leonard Cohen, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds. Tom Waits, Elvis Costello, Warren Zevon, and people who who really cared about about the lyric. And I I'd like to be considered in in that, you know, lane. At what point do you think that kind of going back to the AI portion of it, at what point do you think the AI stops becoming a tool and becomes a co-creator? almost immediately, right? It's so for me, I I'm gonna give it the credit when it comes to to putting the music together. Now I I I put a lot of of what I think it should sound like in in the prompt. yeah, I I I pay attention to to to how fast it is, what what key it's in, if it's a sad song that's gonna be in a minor key, if it's if it's a upbeat song. And most of my songs are sad, so there's a lot of minor key stuff. and so I own the lyrics. The music is coming from this generative machine with me kind of steering it as best I can, but I'm not gonna take credit for some marvelous melody that has randomly appeared as a as as I've been doing that, that I I think really works. And and it is collaborative, right? Because i if you get a good a good melody, you you get a good musical generation with your lyric and you listen back to it, you you sometimes might realize, geez, maybe you know, swap out a word here and there might fit with what's going on inside the music a little bit as well. So there's there's a little bit of play with with the words when it comes to making sure that it jives well with with the music. Have you ever have you ever gotten the melody and then it inspired you to change the lyrics? You know, like it you saw it going in a certain direction? Absolutely. Yeah, I Really? Okay. yeah, so I recently one of my recent releases is called Neither King nor Pawn. And that song is about the AI and and writing songs in the AI environment and the pushback and the and the criticism. and there's a line in there that was really heavy handed, you know, it was you know, me pointing a bony finger. at at the at the person and and being all high and mighty. And I realized that I was the music was too heavy. It didn't fit it it kind of fit the lyrics as they were. but then I tried a something different. I I go, well let's let's see if we make this more of an upbeat song, a little bit sunnier in in terms of how it sounds and that heavy handed lie just didn't work in in that song. And so I ended up switching out the line.

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"Buddy, have another drink." And so this is kind of a country song. And that that line, "Buddy, have another drink," would only work with the music that I had selected. So I was able to take out that the heavy handed line that was kind of weighing the song down and throw a lighthearted a phrase like that in it. And and I was quite pleased with how that turned out. Hey, so random question here. So bear with me. you're giving a QA. You're at the front. You got an audience behind you. they're talking about your music. maybe you're talking to X crowd. It doesn't matter. Create your own epicenter of focus of what you would do. Like what would the venue look like? Is it gonna be a cigar bar? Is it gonna be a huge amphitheater? Like what's your ideal setting for letting the public that's never met you or heard you kind of see and understand a little glimpse into into you as a as a as an So I would say that that what I'm creating is very niche. I don't expect it to have broad popularity. And I I think I see a lot of the AI artists sort of chasing trends. And I'm not about that. I've never been about that. I've never really listened to, you know, top forty stuff. I I I tend toward the obscure and in my listening taste. And so my writing tastes are are the same. I'm I'm I'm going to be small venue, niche, If if I if I had develop an audience, I I imagine it's gonna be like one of those small hardcore cult type following. It's not going to be Nicki Minaj or Taylor Swift. They're not and they're not There you go. losing any sleep about J.S. Clockwise, that's for sure. What what is kind of your your end goal? not end goal, because I know you just want to create, but if there were to be some, you know, ever monet monetization is always an amazing thing. So if there ever was to be, or maybe there already has been, what is kind of your end goal of of some of this? So I mean In order to to delve into this music thing, it it started as an experiment, right? How does how does my poetry gonna sound as as a song? And I liked it and I put it out there. no delusions of grandeur. I I don't I don't expect big things to happen, but you do daydream. It would be nice. It would be nice to see some people following and and get feedback. And I've I've gotten some of that. I've been doing this For only a year now. I started releasing my music September 15th of last year. so I am I feel like I'm right at the start of of this thing. I'll take it for wherever it will go. opportunities like this are are absolutely amazing. I appreciate that. and so Cautiously optimistic. That's what my my hope is. I we I'm I'm hoping for the best. But at the end of the day, right? So this is the other thing. I create music for an audience of one for me. And I really don't care what anybody else thinks. I I create stuff that I enjoy. and if if anybody else enjoys it, all the better. But at the end of the day, if nobody likes it, well, I like it and I'm the president of my own fan club. Exactly. I like that because you're not gonna compromise and sell out's too strong of a word, but point I'm making is it's it's cool to you. That's where you're going. You're not trying to do something that's a little bit out of your wheelhouse just to impress people to draw the clicks. And I think you know, with in the fishing industry that I'm part of, it's kinda annoying to hear people like give a take that's really controversial to get attention. You know, like like just sure, yeah. Just give me your opinion. With all due respect, give me your opinion, give me your your stance and kind of move on with it. You know, the it's it's not the artist here, and I'm not trying to throw random people into this, but it Bob Dylan wrote a song about Hurricane Carter, the boxer. And Yep. Yep. I think that that's worth mentioning because I really like the fact that you're able to tell a story, you're able to tell a personality, you're able to have your own story, your lyrics kind of all go hand in hand. What's a couple ingredients of songwriting that you feel like defined you? I know we've already talked about your calling card, but give me like give me maybe two or three ingredients that you'd like to have as a theme for most of your songs, even if it's drastically different topics that you're dealing with. Have something to say, first of all, right? have a unique perspective, have something to say. especially, you know, 'cause I I get into some heavy stuff, right? My my stuff, you know, a lot of love songs, political songs. I have songs that are, you know, basically prayers. And there's a one one that's a prayer that's sort of political as well. so having something to say and then saying it in an interesting way. I would say those are are, you know, my two north my they're my north star i in terms of of you know how I write what I want to write and how I would like to be remembered is as somebody who said something different, wasn't trying to to to chase trends or sound like everybody else. And that in you know bringing that back up. I early on, a a couple of my songs that I released early on I I I was thinking along the lines of all right, let's Let's try to do something a little bit more modern, you know, a little bit, you know, with with broader appeal. And the problem with that is, yeah, they're they're all right, but they're not my favorite, and they're never going to be my favorite because I kind of betrayed my own taste w when I put them out. And so I learned that really early on that that I've got to be a fan of it. I've got to be in absolute love with it before I I put it out there because there is so much out there that is. not that good. And I'm not talking just AI, I'm talking in general. That that there's and it it it's well and and good and bad, it's all subjective. In my opinion, there's there's a lot out there lyrically that just doesn't scratch the itch. And so I'm hoping to views doesn't equal quality. I mean I I couldn't agree more. Sometimes stuff goes viral and you're kinda like, Why? You know what I mean? Well I well I yeah, absolutely. And and I've been thinking a lot about that, right? Is a lot of it isn't about the music. It's about the personality behind the music, right? Like take Taylor Swift for instance. Fant amazing talent, amazing songwriter, but her popularity is because of the celebrity of who she of who she is. And so there's there's this cult of of personality that goes hand in hand with you know, you know, streams and and ticket sales and and album sales and and things like that. So it it's it's it's separate from the the quality work. Now I don't have that kind of following. I'll never have that quite kind of following. So everything has to rise and fall in the quality of of the song and the lyric that I put forth. So so there's no shortcuts here. I can't afford it. Let me ask you a quick fork in the road question. So you live in or you're from that the region of the Michigan area. So you the UP, you got beautiful outdoor stuff, you got a lot of places to hunt and fish, being an outdoorsman that I like to personally do. have you ever thought about the topic as simple as lighthouses and nature as far as intertwining that into maybe a song that you would do in the upcoming months or years? Probably not, because I think there's there's and if that that interests you, so so be it. Boys that sounds Love it. dreadfully boring to me. Lighthouses and and There you go. nature so so that's probably not something that that I would ever lean into. And that and that was you know, when I was writing poetry before the a the generative AI and the songs and everything, I was putting him online to on an amateur poetry site FanStory is what it was called. And I would get feedback from from other amateur poets and whatnot. And they would get feedback from me. And there was just a a ton of of that. And bored me to tears. You know, I and and and but on the other hand, there's probably people who listen read my poetry, listen to my lyrics and and or no thank you, you know, snooze fest. But you know, it's a matter of taste. So I try not I try not to be I try not to be boring. I try not to use the the flowery over-the-top language. You know, I I wrote a a poem a a long time ago, and I I put that one in in my book in the forward of the book. It was called House Rules. And it was, you know, stay away from the stay away from the old English language, the flowery language that people think po poetry has to sound like. I one of the lines is Thys and 'tises and thees and doths offend and displease. So never write "thou" if it's "you." You know, it it's kind of me taking a aim at at some of those people that I was, you know, reading on that site and saying, Hey, you know, welcome to twenty twenty or twenty fifteen or how w whatever the year was when he was I was doing that. And it's like, we can do better than you know trying to sound like Shakespeare. not that, you know. I mean, if we could doll sound like Shakespeare, we'd gladly do that. But The old English is, you know, doesn't make it doesn't elevate it. Yeah. Do you or have you ever like been a performer at all? Like do you ever go to poetry readings and have you ever read your poetry or or do you sing or anything like that? You are looking at an amazing introvert. The fact that I'm here now on camera with you guys is amazing. And you know, twenty minutes, thirty minutes, an hour before this, I was a nervous wreck. So absolutely Wow. not. No. I appreciate that. you're you're doing great. I don't almost think you're lying, man. To be totally honest. Like I I can't sense Yeah, you don't seem like it at all. it at all because the thing the thing that I want to tell you that it that that I wanna just interject just real quick here is is when someone is genuine and they're not gonna bend to what they do, a societal norm, I think that's you because I love the fact that you took my question, crumbled it up and tossed it, right? And that's Yeah. a compliment to you. That's not a swipe because That to me seemed applicable. Hey, it's in his n in in his natural neighborhood of, you know, geographically, but at the same time, you just took it and ran with it. So I think I think the fact that you're able to do this and perform, I wouldn't have known that. I mean, Nick, do you agree a hundred percent? I mean, I w I I would have thought he's done a lot of these and and been, you know, speaking in front of people. He seems pretty comfortable. I would have thought that he did some honestly, I w I saw you as maybe doing some slam poetry in the past to be like I thought I bet I'll bet you he is a secret slam poetry. Like I bet he did some like late night slam Yeah. poetry, you know, like in a s like a smoky bar, you know, with some you know, some dim lights and Who knows? Maybe maybe that's something that I I go to. In another one. Yeah, I might. I get enough drinks in me and you know, karaoke, I'll I'll go up and do that and maybe another couple of shots and and the slam poetry will be, you know, something that I I I do in the future. what would a future performance, whether it be from you or from someone else, via the whole AI music scene? Like what what would that look like? Do you think? You think it'd be a DJ? Or I mean, what what do you think that would look like? I have absolutely no idea what that would look like, Yeah. right? Because you know, so I had a I have had some positive feedback and I had a guy message me a couple of weeks ago and he said, Hey man, yeah, I love really love your stuff. I was wondering if I could have an autograph. Can you like just sign a set list or something to to hang on on Nice. the man cave wall? And I was like I don't have anything like that. I d I don't I don't do that. I'm purely a a a digital create I mean I I'm a human being here, but everything I do in terms of my music is is is purely digital. And so, you know, I I at that time I th I thought, you know, that's the limitation, right? I don't I don't know what what the future holds in terms of somebody like me performing. I I don't see that at you know, right now I'm I can't stand up on stage and pull out my phone and say, Hey guys, hold on a second. I'm gonna, you know, you know generate a a song on Suno and we'll all listen to it together for the first time. I I don't think that'd sell a lot of tickets. So I I I'm open to to whatever happens No. so who knows? Let me give you let me give you a synopsis here. So I'm an ad lib guy. I'll say that out loud to you. Some people like to be very perf you know, perfect is perfect their craft, sorry. Some people like to be ad lib. What I would what I would think would be interesting is, and I just came up with this, hundred, hundred and fifty seat venue, right? You got seating on the sides and then you got seating in the front, you're up front, and you almost present it like you're reading poetry. as like a cross pollination of poetry and music. And then you're actually reading the poetry, but it's actually your lyrics. And then you show them the lyrics in the song. And it's kind of bouncing back and forth between poetic and music. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just saying that kind of that I could see that. would be and I I would I would be an audience member of that if that makes sense. So I think you could take that Yeah. any direction. And I think there's you know you look being in teaching and administration and colleges, it's anything from teaching the elementary child that is inspiring their musical career all the way to someone that's a three to four hundred level, you know, performer presenter. So I think there's all kinds of platforms and and stuff you could do for that. What gives you the most thrill when that's completed? You know, being a sports guy, it's catching a fish, it's making a three pointer, it's kinda I hate to say it, but they say the tug is my drug. In other words, when I'm setting the hook and bringing Yeah. in this fish that just doesn't want to come to the boat, what's your stamp of, man, I really did this and and how does that feel, you know, once you accomplish that song or lyric? So like I said, w when when the idea and hits me and I start writing, I am something seizes me. There's there's that compulsion and and and I I focus way more attention than I should. You know, dishes start piling up, laundry goes, you know, unwashed because I'm tunnel vision on on completing the task. I have a vision for where a a poem or a song needs to go. And I'm all about that. And so the drug is is that that final line. When I've when I've created it, I've gone through and made edits and I make edits j just annoying nit nitpicky type things that most everybody would be like Why even bothering? But I every syl syllable I I consider. And so the drug is when it's all done, right? I've got it. And I've got it dialed in exactly where I want it to be. There's nothing to nothing to add, nothing to take away. And I get to sit back and whatever whatever emotional state that I was in that compelled me to write it that way, I'm able to then. kind of separate myself from it and and kind of look at things objectively. It there's there's a a healing that goes on, especially if if you know you're consumed with, you know, sadness, despair, anger, and you're able to to to write that down and kind of crystallize it into, you know, the perfect poem from me in that moment, it it's able to to separate and and and evaluate and heal. I'm glad to see you have that success and put yourself out there. It's it's been interesting, and I think Nick would agree with me here. It's been interesting that we've been kind of the first podcast experience or like a different podcast experience. And I think that's what we take a lot of pride on. That's our. That's our calling card actually, just so you're hearing that Yeah. is having an interesting guest on there that's off the beaten path, that typically they're good people, they're good conversations, and quite frankly, if they're not, we have fun with that too. So it's you know, we've we've met some really interesting people. So I just want to kind of toss that out there randomly to you. Well, I I appreciate that because you know I also did my research on you guys before I came on here and I'm looking at some of your past guests and I'm like, geez, you got NBA Hall of Famers and and board certified physicians and you know filmmakers and this and that and I'm like somebody made a mistake on their end. They booked the wrong guy. There's no way I I fit in. You know, this is what were they thinking, these guys? But I appreciate it. Thank you. Well, I yeah, I think that's kind of why we can resonate with you too, is because you know, you said you said earlier that your music is not doesn't matter what other people think'cause you're making it for yourself. And when when we put this together, you know, like it would be it would be so much more successful, whatever that looks like, if we chose a niche. But we don't want to do that. You know, like we it's been a lot of fun to getting getting to know so many different people So it's and you know, like learning so much about so many different people. So it's been it's been really cool. I appreciate I love the journey Yes. and the thing that I wanna share with you there that hopefully you can take back into your craft is there's nothing worse that than listening to anyone talk when they have their chest thrown out and they're a chest pounder, right? You don't take yourself too seriously. You let your thoughts speak in the lyrics that you have. With all due respect to you, numbers are irrelevant to me. It doesn't matter if you have X amount of views or Y amount of views, but it is kind of cool that a random person you know, you know, a random person knows who you are. A high school classmate said some things about that because, you know, this is really personable. You know, I lost my dad about a month and a half ago. I know the audience probably knows that. Nick definitely knows that. But like my dad was a songwriter and he did eight to ten songs. He basically paid X for a pretty famous guy. in our area to go into the studio and record for him, but he was always bothered by the lack of how do I want to say this? Like what the person thought of it. Like the person listened to it and would give a one to two word response. And he always thought you'll appreciate this. He always wanted somebody to say it was terrible and they'd never listen anymore or they thought it was great and it was so bizarre that they'd just be like, it was interesting. Well, you know, Yeah, so give me a little more than that. So Speak speak of what speak of what is maybe a successful maybe review or if a person said X to you, what what would mean something to you personally a as a songwriter? So I've had a a couple with with my songs out for the past year, I've had a couple of people reach out, more than a couple, a few. And you know, the first one sticks out in my mind as this woman reached out, she's she said, I Okay. this song is about me. Now I don't know who she was. It wasn't about her, but she so identified with it, she was convinced that, you know, maybe I knew her somehow, or she she she connected with it and and and felt something. So That was awesome, right? And I've had a c I've had a couple That is that's really cool. of people like that that have reached out a and and and and said, Hey, I'm a fan, I I I like it and Flying high. High as a kite when something like that happens. That's amazing. They're right before the show we were talking about, you know, how we're how just AI practical use in in everyday life, you know, and how it's not necessarily that I that I love it, although I'm a tech geek, so I love stuff like that. But it's it because it's here, you know, it you have to embrace it because eventually I mean, you know, when digital first came about, as opposed to analog, you know, I'm ever how many people were so pissed off about that. no, nothing's ever gonna be the same, you know, and then and then They realize that okay, it may be different, but it's different in a good way. And I think that this could this could go in either either way. You hear a lot of doomsday people talk about AI, and then you hear a lot of people talk about how great it's gonna make the future of all different kinds of things. So what would you say to somebody that that tried to say, well, you know, like that's not music, you know, or something like that? What would be your response to someone like that? music is art. And whether or not something is art, I think largely depends on the connection that people feel when they experience it, right? I think that's kind of been, you know, I studied in college some aesthetics theory, right? And we we delve into the question of what is art. And one of the things that art has done since the beginning of time is it creates in groups and out groups that connects us. And I think as long as whatever it is is is connecting people, you know, you like that? All right, I like that too. We're we're simpatico, right? And so there's there's this fandom and there's a different fandom over there and it creates a a community. And I think that's important. And on the on the opposite end, right? I think the people who say, you know, that that AI music is not ours. and they rally against it and they get angry and and and vehement against it. Well they're kind of undermining, you know, based on that reasoning, their own their own point, right? Because art also creates creates they they create the community against it. So I think that's an interesting take in terms of, you know, you can be against it, you can avoid listening to it. it's here to stay. And I it in my opinion it is art. What I'm doing I agree. is art. So live vicariously through Awesome. Okay. Well again, our guest is JS Clockwise. And J.S., where can people find you? Where can people find your songs? your poetry, all the things. Anywhere that music streams, I'm available on all platforms. I have a a a book of poetry if somebody's interested in sort of earlier versions of these songs. it's called Forgive This Brief Intrusion by Jacob Sheber. It's on Amazon. Perfect. Okay. Do you have a any any place you want anybody Can you place one in my to follow you on? Do you have Instagram or anything like that? Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, I'm on all the socials. Not so much X, but I'm on all the socials. but take a listen. I I think you'll like it. And if you do, you know, drop drop me a note and let me know.