I Wasn't Brave. I Was Just Numb.

At 50, exhausted from two abusive marriages and a career spent taking care of everyone but herself, Pamela Topjian sold almost everything she owned, bought a one-way bus ticket, and left home not knowing where she'd land. Ten years later, she's a published author, a podcast host, and living what she calls the first equal, respectful marriage of her life.

In this episode, Pamela and Jason talk through the bus ride that changed everything, why she says she wasn't brave — just numb — and what actually happens in the years after you survive the thing that almost broke you.

About Pamela: She spent 14 years as a nurse before becoming a certified hypnotherapist and, later, a pet-sitting business owner. She's the author of two memoirs — "I Didn't Come This Far to Only Come This Far" and "Behind the Mask, Gloves, and Scrubs: One Nurse's Journey" — and hosts the Holistic Connections podcast, featuring conversations with holistic practitioners.

Find Pamela (verify these before publishing — pulled from what she said on the episode, not a separate bio page):
YouTube — her own channel, under the name Pamela Topjian
Instagram — @holisticconnections.pamela
Podcast — Holistic Connections, Conversations with Holistic Practitioners
Link tree — linktr.ee/PamelaTopjian
Books — search "Pamela Topjian" on Amazon

Follow the show for more conversations like this, or find every episode at mosaicmindspodcast.com.

Transcript

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Pam, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being on. Yeah, thank you so much. It's my pleasure, my honor to be here. Appreciate it. So when I was so when I was looking over everything,~ I was the the big thing that popped out that I kinda wanted to at least start off with was the was the bus ride. Okay, so is Mm. so it's been about ten years since the bus ride, Yes. right? ~ if the if the fifty year old fifty year young woman I should say who boarded it could see your life now, you know, married, riding, podcasting, doing everything, the pet sitting, what would what would surprise her most? Everything, everything. Yeah. Love it. This is a completely different person than the person who got on that bus. I mean, I would have in the state I was in at that time because I got on the bus after or during a mental breakdown. And I was so numb and so lost. And you know, I I say that I was fearful, but it was kind of Was I more numb or more fearful? I'm not sure. But I just had no I was so lost. I was lost within myself and obviously I was on a bus. I was kind of in between lives and between homes and ~ so yeah, I would be shocked at everything. I just the Okay. happiness even, just that I could have made it out of that and to a place of That I could have never expected. Yeah. Well, I would say that's probably a good thing then. You know, I mean that's probably a really good thing. Yeah. Absolutely. So give give a little bit of background about the I guess the listeners wouldn't and the viewers wouldn't know what I was talking about with the bus ride. So give us a little bit of background Yeah. about what that bus ride was and and how it came about. Yeah, so after my second divorce and I had had two abusive marriages, after the second divorce was like the first time that I lived alone and everything should have been great, but I kind of spiraled downward. And I was suicidal. My mother had already lost a daughter, and so I didn't go through with those plans because I didn't want my mother to have to lose another daughter. So I was hanging on basically for my mom. I thought that the nightmares, the anxiety, the depression was because I was worried that my ex-husband would find me because I had moved away and ~ you know, but he didn't know where I was, but I had no idea where he was either. And Right. so a friend suggested to me that they might be moving. And maybe I want to do the same thing, you know, to get a fresh start. Get out of here, start over. And everything will be great. So I sold just about everything, you know, or got rid of stuff and ~ even my car and took a got a one way ticket halfway across the country. Got on the bus. It was a three day ride. I got on the bus on June thirtieth. I got off the bus on July fourth, twenty sixteen. So it's just been ten years. And yeah. Yeah. So one of the things about that bus ride though is and I don't know if I had, you know, ~ told you guys about this or not, but one of the things about the bus ride was that one of the first people to come on to sit next to me was somebody that was kind of disheveled, they look like an unhoused person, and I was in such a state that I didn't want to be friendly, I didn't want to but I was, you know, just like nodding, whatever they were nonstop talking. I wasn't engaging, but I was just kind of like acknowledging, you know, not completely ignoring. Well, they ended up spilling they had a water bottle. They spilled the water bottle on the seat. I had jeans on and I stood up really quickly because my whole backside was wet and I could smell it wasn't water. And no. and this guy starts trying to wipe off my bottom with his hand or I don't know if he had a bandana or whatever. And I was just like, why me? Like like I've never I'm not that kind of person. I've never said why me with all the stuff I've been through. But that was like, out of all the people he could have sat next to, me, who was just here trying to hold it together for this ride, and this happens. So Yes, some people might have taken that as a sign, right? Like, ~ yeah, maybe maybe I shouldn't be on this bus, but you know, good thing that you didn't listen to that. Ugh. Yeah. Well it was like the first so we were coming up to the first stop that we had and I don't remember like how far we went before the first stop. And the bus driver had said, You can't get anything, you know, whatever you need in your suitcase, you're not getting it until your final destination. So whatever you're gonna need for the ride, keep it with you. And most people weren't on for three days, I don't think, 'cause a lot of people came on and got off and whatever at all the stops along the way. So I had to tell the bus driver what happened? And so that guy was kicked off and the bus driver allowed me to get my suitcase to change my clothes and I threw those jeans away in the bathroom in the bus stop because I wasn't gonna put them in my suitcase. They smelled like alcohol and yeah, certainly wasn't gonna wear for that long. Okay. I think yeah, I think we should clarify the alcohol thing 'cause I thought you meant Like when you're like I I was like,~ no. Okay, okay. So so it was alcohol in the bottle. So Pepsi, I've never heard anyone say that. Okay. Okay. Pepsi, you meant Pepsi. he meant Pepsi. No, just~ fine. Just fine. I don't know why my mind went my gosh. there, you know, but yeah. that's so funny. There is a there's a book. It's not my book, but there's a book called Peeing in an Empty Bottle. So anyway Times. Written by a man, I'm sure. Pamela, I wanna say ~ I wanna it was a say to you that you know, your your story is a story of resiliency. So, you know, the seat on the bus is kinda cliche. But talk to me a little bit about what maybe brought you to the point where you just said kind of enough's enough. I'm gonna kinda take a dry eraser and just kinda erase and kind of move on.~ talk to the audience a little bit about that. Yeah, so you know, starting from my childhood, there was all kinds of trauma. I don't know how deep we want to get into that.~ I'm I'm fine to talk about whatever we want to talk about, how graphic we want to get or not. But I had all kinds of childhood stuff that I never addressed, that was never never got therapy for, never even really considered it trauma. It was just kind of this is what happens when you're live in poverty and when you have no parental guidance or no one to mentor or model or anything like that.~ it was just kind of like this is how I grew up.~ but then I so then I had two like I said I had two abusive marriages and got the second divorce and I just really spiraled downward. I was just having all kinds of nightmares. I was having anxiety, panic,~ You know, I was fearful all the time while I was there and I was living alone, starting to have well, I had well, I was suicidal, but I was starting to make a plan. And so I am a former nurse, and at that time I was still a nurse. I'm not now. And my nurse mind kind of kicked in for my own self and I knew, my gosh, I'm making a plan. This is serious. I've gotta do something. And that's kind of when a friend was saying, Hey, I'm gonna be moving Maybe you want to do the same. Maybe that's a good idea for you. And it wasn't like an invitation, like not to go together or whatever, but like, hey, this is something I'm gonna be doing. Maybe it's something you want to do too. I told my landlord, I said, because I was just renting this little house, I said, I may be having to break the lease, I may be moving out of state, I just want to give you a heads up. And I hadn't I didn't know yet exactly how that was gonna work, but I wanted to see what they would say first. And they said, We are thinking of selling the house anyway. Can you be out in two weeks? And so I was like, Mm-hmm. I will try and I did. So so yeah, yeah, that's kind of how that happened and then and then everything was like moved really quickly. So from two weeks from the time of first considering it, first having the idea to getting on the bus was two weeks. Okay. So I I think that everybody I don't know about I can't speak for Jason, but I think everybody has that that ~ fantasy from time to time of, you know, c Mm-hmm. what if I just got on a bus or got on a plane or got in my car and just drove and just kept Mm-hmm. driving, you know, and just got away. I think everyone's had that fantasy. So ~ and and I know that I I think you mentioned in your ~ in your notes that have said before that, you know, you're really brave and you say, I wasn't brave, I was I was just numb, right? Yeah. So what would you say what's the difference between courage and then just simply being out of options? So I think, you know, I didn't I didn't care what happened to me. I wasn't brave because I wasn't like facing anything. I didn't feel like like this is a dangerous thing for a a single woman to do alone, ~ just getting on a bus, going across the country, going to someplace, you know, getting into something that she didn't really know she was getting into. It's like it's not like, I make taking these brave steps. It's more of like I didn't really care. Like almost you know, like I've said a few times, I was suicidal and it's almost like, well, if something happened to me, that would be easier than me taking my own life. And it wasn't like I was hoping for it, but it was just like I did not care what happened. I didn't want to live that life I was living. So I wasn't I didn't feel like I was taking brave steps and being courageous. It felt more like You know, I'm just it just was holding on to a little bit of hope for my mother. Like, okay, this is like a last ditch effort kind of a thing. So I want to give you kind of a mosaic look for the first time of a couple times this, because that's the name of our podcast, but it kind of puts Mm-hmm. the thread together. So I'm gonna use a weird analogy and I'm gonna apologize I use it. But Okay. if you take like a buckshot from a hunting perspective, it Yeah. covers an area. So I'm gonna say that that's like shot against a wall or like Okay, that's a poor analogy under the topic we're talking about. But the question I wanna tap into that I want to be able to ask you is through your nursing career, how do you start to put your hands over some of those Ender My Analogy, the buckshot holes that were created in the wall, if you will, to start saying, I've handled this, now I'm gonna handle this, now I'm gonna handle this and get yourself more ~ I'd say teeter tottered to balance in the middle is how I'm gonna explain that. I'm gonna be quiet from there and let you kind of tap into your medical background Mm-hmm. just a little bit. Well, I think that, you know, while I was still working, I put everything, my whole mind was focused there. So I could kind of comment you know, what do you call that? ~ you know yeah, Departmentalize. Yep. There you go. that's the word I'm looking for. Thank you. Yes I was kinda trying to do that I guess. And in nursing you can do that because when you have several patients it's like you've gotta put your whole mind right here and then you go to the next room and your whole mind's right here. And you go to the next patient and whatever you need to do, it you're not bringing it with you. So I kind of did that during my nursing career is just really focus on the job at hand and the task at hand while I was there.~ so yeah, I think that you know, and then like I said too, when ~ when I started making a plan. It was all of a sudden I it was almost like I was looking at another patient, like, this is in the notes. Okay, I know that this is more serious. This is something we need to address. You know, I kind of did that for myself. so yeah, I'm not sure exactly, you know, if that's kind of what you're looking for. Exactly. That that's ~ kind of a follow up question of that is you know, you take a bus ride, it's ~ it's bravery, it's resilience. There's a lot of things in in that bus ride. Say you get to X City in the United States and you're off the bus now and you're taking a deep breath and you're recalibrating to new environment around you. How long from a time perspective was it till you started feeling quote unquote a little more day to day, what I would consider to be normal or kind of recalibrated? Yeah, it was at least a year. so the first three weeks I was in a situation that was a very bad situation, like almost a predator situation. I w had taken a job that was like online. I did not I of course had never been there and I didn't know these people and it was like this is a this is a job that I can do that you can have a place to live and you can work. And the odd thing is it was like somebody who ran a business out of their home and you could do clerical work and stuff during the day in exchange for a room. And ~ you know, and I didn't have a car or anything either and I was told I'd have use of the car. So there was a lot I mean, I'm not going into that too deep. There was a lot, lot, lot going on there and I knew pretty quickly I needed to get out of there. So, and I was mad at myself, like, how dare I be so dumb? You know, how could I be so, you know, make these bad decisions? Anyway, so then from there I was taking jobs that were more kind of in my nursing. I you can't change nursing from one state to another just moving and changing your job. You have to go through the state board of nursing every time you go to a niff different state.~ so you have to apply. And ~ it to takes a lot of money. And I was in such a state that I didn't know that I was even gonna ever return to nursing. And I knew that I couldn't do that job right then. So I was and I wasn't even sure I was gonna stay in the place I was. So ~ I mean as far as the state. So I was taking jobs that were like caregiving jobs where you could live in, you do pet sitting, house sitting, helping the elderly, ~ things like that that were a little more, you know of what I was used to doing, but also having a room in exchange as part of your So I didn't have to, you know, find a place to live too. So yeah. You you'd mentioned earlier that this kind of all started with w with your second once your second divorce happened, right? And Yeah. I and I think I so I I have a a a few divorces under my belt as well, Okay. so I can I can r I understand how that can go, right? So ~ and it's and it yeah, it's it's really, really tough. Any kind of end of a long term relationship or marriage is is a is really~ Yeah. but especially, you know, when it's marriage and you have a contract involved and and there's other factors as well. Mm. I think that you had mentioned ~ maybe it was ~ in in the bio that you sent, but you had mentioned that you were had gotten into a new relationship at some point, right? Yeah. And Yeah, yeah. yeah, and you said and 'cause you described it as ~ respectful and loving and and that kind of thing and healthy and equal. An equal, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how how did ~ I mean, did you feel immediately safe in that relationship or was that something that kinda had to come after some time of, you know, of previous trends and previous experience? Yeah, so I was I had started therapy and I would not be able to be in this relationship if it wasn't for therapy. I completely credit therapy for this.~ but it I had already started therapy and I was you know, it was more of we met each other and it was like an instant connection, like ~ felt like we knew each other forever. We went for coffee and usually it's like, you know, 30 minutes, 45 minutes is a long time if you're for coffee. We were talking for hours and hours. We just felt so comfortable with each other. But he had also been through a terrible divorce and going through a lot of stuff himself, and I was too. So we were both very like independent and guarded as far as like dating and getting into a relationship. But we just got along so well. And so it was just like every you know, it was like you know, people say day by day, it was like date by date. It was like, you know, we weren't ~ you know, it was more of like, ~ you know, do I wanna see this person again? Yes, I do. We had a great time last time. And do I wanna see this person again? Yes, I do. We had a great time last time. It's just kind of date by date by date that we kind of our relationship grew through that. Yeah. After you left, ~ you you left the abusive relationship and you said that you expected you kind of expected freedom to feel like like freedom, right? And Yeah. your your mental health you said got worse before it got better. So what do people misunderstand about about that, about what happens after survival mode? You know, when they expect that okay, as soon as that's out of the picture, everything's gonna be fine. I think that people don't realize that just because you're out of a situation, it doesn't mean everything's gonna be good now. You have been through something traumatic, and you probably a lot of people don't realize that this was trauma, this was a traumatic situation. They just think this is something I went through. Phew, great for me, I'm out of it. But there's all that other stuff that still needs to be worked through and still needs to. be processed and you know, you need to get that out of you. It's not you can't just, you know, be away from the situation and you can't just move halfway across the country and it's gone either. You know, the well everything you've been through, you know, is stored in you mentally and physically. Everything that you've been through is still within you until you can get whatever kind of therapy is gonna be best for you. I went through EMDR therapy, I also had psychotherapy, so just regular talk therapy and then eventually EMDR. It doesn't work for everybody. I'm not promoting that or not or whatever, but you know, just find whatever's gonna work for you. Even if you don't think you need therapy, if you think I'll get I think that it's good to find something just even to see, just to make sure, am I okay now? Because just 'cause I got out of this terrible situation doesn't mean you're gonna be okay. That's what I thought. I thought, Good, I'm away, everything's great now. kind of a goofy analogy here, but in sports it's come back player of the year. And I think I want to recognize to you,~ to your ear that it's kind of cool that you ~ you take backgrounds that you've had, ~ nursing, ~ therapy, ~ setbacks and relationships, and you keep you keep coming back and you seem like you're a stronger version of maybe the person before that ad adversity had set in, right? Mm-hmm. So talk to me about how you kind of reinvent yourself multiple times and you keep come coming back and thriving and quite frankly just welcoming the next chapter in in your success. Yeah, yeah. So while I was in therapy, I was writing everything out from my childhood up until, you know, the first marriage and through the second marriage and just kind of connecting those dots for myself, like how did I get here? How did I end up here? And I was writing everything out. And that became my first book, which I wasn't writing it for anybody else, but I was writing it for me, just to help me remember and help me to see it down in front of me. So the title of that is I didn't come this far to only come this far. So that's what kept me going was like, I made it this far. Now what? Okay, I made it this far. Now what? You know, like you crawl out of this, you know, speaking of analogies, you know, I climbed out of this deep dark hole. not to just sit on the edge and be like, phew, I made it out of that, and not just sit there. It's like, okay, now what? And then also really prioritizing my own my own, you know, inner peace, but also who am I now? You know, I'm not that same person anymore. Who am I now? And just exploring that and getting to know myself. Once I made it out of that hole and once I knew that I was not going to, you know, self-unalive myself, as they kind of say nowadays. now that I knew that I was out of that mode and feeling much better, it was just like, okay, I wanna try this, I wanna try that, I want to, you know, and anything that didn't feel good, I didn't have to have an explanation. It's like, that doesn't feel s I'm not gonna go that way. I'm not gonna do that. You know, so it's honoring myself and what feels good for me.~ But yeah, just sort of, you know, I didn't want to sit on that edge and just be like, phew, I made it out. Now I'm going to sit here. You know. It's just like I think just a quick comment on that on a personal level, you know, I I've always struggled with like finding that stability of six months, I'm happy. It seems like it's not that I'm happy one day and sad the next per se, but it's like the seasons Indiana's kind of weird. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna throw that out there.~ Mm-hmm. because you don't get sunlight in the winter and the days are short, so you go into work in the dark and you come home in the dark. So it's not Yeah. an excuse, but the winter is challenging for me. So I have to force myself to be in the gym and come kind of go go from that. Now, from what I understand, you gave the title of the first book. talk to us a little bit about the title of the second book and kind of what was the thoughts behind that second memoir there. Yeah, so the second one is Behind the Mask, Gloves, and Scrubs, One Nurse's Journey. So in the first book, of course, I talk a little bit about nursing, but not a whole lot. Because I was writing out like the whole life story of everything I had been to, and then at the end is the healing part of it.~ which is, you know, I c I should I wanna update the whole thing now. I guess it was twenty twenty two. But ~ anyway, so then People were asking me about the nursing,~ w wanted more about the nursing, how I quit, why I quit, you know, different stories from nursing. So I thought, well, that could be a whole book in itself. So I wrote that second book. Yeah. How'd you get involved in the holistic lifestyle? That's actually something that I've always been interested in. I'm I'm not necessarily ~ you know, engulfed in it, but ~ Mm-hmm. partly because, you know, it's it can be pricey. But it's something that Ha ha. it's something that I've always been interested in. How did you get into that? And and is is your are you pretty much living a holistic lifestyle? Well, ~ so I got into it first because I've always been kind of on the more natural side of things. I had my second baby at home,~ planned to have her at home, had a midwife home birth, midwife attended home birth. Hand. The midwife didn't make it though. So I was yeah, yeah. ~ What? everything was fine. And ~ and then after that I kind of wanted to go into midwifery. And so I was apprenticing with a midwife, helping other women give birth at home. and I always went for, you know, look, you know, read the ingredients on bottles and things. I made made my daughter, ~ you know, I made the baby food. She never had jar baby food and I didn't she didn't have formula. ~ you know, not everybody has that option, but I always just went for the more natural route anytime I could. And ~ So after I was done with nursing, when I realized I was gonna quit if I could, I start I went to I got certified in hypnotherapy.'Cause long before How cool. that I had started that course and I was in my second marriage and I didn't have you know, I was the one who was working to pay the bills, so I didn't have the freedom to kind of like make a career change, you know, or leave something that was very, you know, pretty good pay and very stable. So, ~ So I did that after I got here. I started hypnotherapy. I gave it the five years. I had a business coach and everything, but entrepreneurship just wasn't for me. So then I was like, how can I help other holistic practitioners to get the word out about what they do? And how can I help the public know all of their options? So I started a podcast of, you know, just interviewing holistic practitioners. them sharing what they do and ~ you know just sort of helping to dispel any misconceptions or misunderstandings about it. And I get everything from like really sort of mystical and woo-woo and maybe even a little witchy kind of stuff over to even like naturopathic doctors and everything. So it's just the whole gamut of, you know, more natural, more holistic. alternative sometimes types of ~ practices and methods just to Are you kind of get the word out. are you still are you s you still confident in your hip hypnotherapy Like do you think you could still practice if you wanted to? I don't know. I don't know. I d I'm a I'm d done with it. Gotcha. I've always been fascinated in that. Like, especially NLP. Like I wish being from the Midwest, that kind of stuff isn't Mm-hmm. out here. Or if it is, you it's really hard to find. But I would Yeah. love to find ~ an NLP what would you call it? An NLP practitioner or whatever. Practitioner, facilitator, yeah. Yeah, I'd love to find something like that. Yeah, I would love to find someone like that and get them to go in my brain and rewire some stuff, you know, I'd love that. A lot of people do it online now. Since the pandemic they've s switched a lot of things that used to be only in person. Now they'll do it through Zoom or something. Yeah. You feel like it works as well doing that? I've always been a little skeptical about like doing stuff like that over Zoom. I think it just depends on the person on how comfortable they are. You know, it's something to try and then if it doesn't work, you know, like with hypnotherapy,~ some people were able to go deeper because they felt more comfortable. They were in their own bed, in their own house That's true, yeah. and they could dress however they wanted, they could have their pet with them if they wanted, compared to having to drive somewhere, you know, and you know, and then drive back like right after the session, then you're back in traffic, you know. Yeah. So,~ a lot of people liked hypnotherapy through Zoom better, even if they had the option. ~ but not but again, you know, everybody's different. So yeah, and yeah. Taking a look through the mosaic glass there. We s I like to say this about every time. Nick probably already knows what I'm gonna say, but you know, when the glass shines through the mosaic glass and you kinda see that bright picture. So we all know an inventor invents something, right? You're a reinventor, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. You're always reinventing yourself.~ the only thing I can say is 'cause, you know, you you kind of know the theme of analogies, but it's almost like I take a handful of darts and kind of toss up there and you've got different segments. Yeah. But they all seem to kind of tie back into your medical background, maybe Yeah. your therapeutic background. And the thing that I love about this, and I'm super proud to tell you, is my family's got over a hundred years in the education sector. Mm. So we're teachers, we're nurturers, we're encouragers, Yeah. we're telling you what you need to hear. So talk to me a little bit about how you're constantly able to reinvent and also have multiple successful projects across multiple platforms. Yeah. I think that I'm just always trying to find what's a good fit for me. And I'm now these days not willing to stay with a project or with something if it's not also giving back, if it's not, you know, ~ feeling good to me. So I'm not one to you know, do something so l like as you know, as an example with the hypnotherapy, so I promised myself I'd give the five years. So after about four years, the fifth year was coming around and I w thought, what is giving me the you know, rather than like a ~ you know, a New Year's resolution or anything, it's more of like what has given me the most stress this past year? And then how can I make that better for the next year? And that's kind of how I look at things. Like I re do a lot of reflection on how did that make me feel and what am I gonna do about it if it's not good? And if it is good, how am I gonna continue with this and let it grow? So like with the hypnotherapy, it was that and it wasn't the hypnotherapy itself, it was the whole Entrepreneurship with marketing and you know, it already has sort of a negative stigma attached to it for a lot of people. And so constantly c trying to convince people, which I'm not a salesman and I don't wanna try to convince people, you know, or people I was getting a lot of people who, you know, couldn't afford it. You were talking before about the, you know, the cost of things that don't insurance doesn't cover. And my prices weren't real high, but still I was getting a lot of people that couldn't afford it. So I was just really doing a lot of either free or reduced cost or going through programs to help people if I could. So it was just causing me a lot of stress and it wasn't really growing. And I was doing pet sitting at the ti at the on the side at the time and that was growing really big. So I was able to, you know, just really continue with that. And that's what like even the business coach said, you know, you've got these two sort of side things you're doing, but you think of the hypnotherapy as your main thing, but this thing over here is really growing on its own and you love it just as much. So why are you stressing so much about this little thing? So I that's when I said, Okay, I'm gonna just let the hypnotherapy go and continue with the pet sitting. So I'm pet sitting now. But that's what I do is like I always reflect on if I'm stressed or if I'm starting to feel like you said you mentioned, you know, with Indiana and the sunlight and all of that. I grew up in the Midwest. So I grew up in~ the suburbs of Chicago. But ~ so I understand that for sure. And I also lived in Upper Michigan for fifteen years with my first husband. So I do understand that. Yeah, It's really cold up there. Yeah. yeah. For a longer amount of time too. But ~ But yeah, just always reflecting and being self aware, you know, ~ how am I feeling? Okay, what caused this? Or what c if is there anything I can do about it? Or, you know, just was there anything that I missed? You know, just looking back. So that's how I keep doing that I guess. That's interesting that you say that you look back at and try to think, you know, what caused that or or w I Yeah. mean, do you do you think so do you think that the majority of ~ unhappiness, whether it's from depression, whatever it is, do you think that majority of that is ~ environmental related? I mean, do you think that's triggered or d or is it or do you think that more people are chemical than 'cause I'm sure you have an opinion about that, especially being into the holistic stuff. So like do you think that as much of it is chemical is kind of like what society puts out there, or do you think that most of it is triggered in some way? Well, I think we cause a lot of our own stuff that we want to put on other things. Like where did I say yes when I should have said no? Where did I night not speak up when I should have set a boundary? Where did I did I miss sleep and why did I miss sleep? Did I choose to binge watch something or did I, you know, whatever it is and missed some sleep and so now I was crabby or now I didn't make the best decisions. So it's more focused on myself than my environment. You know, it's like what did I do to get to this point where whatever the mistake was made or wherever I was feeling depressed or anxious or angry or whatever,~ you know, how did I get here? That's kind of what I look at. But I definitely think there's a chemical component or hormonal component to the seasonal affective disorder where if people are always, every winter, they find themselves depressed. That's definitely has to do with the sun. Yeah. What do you think as ~ one of my ~ finals would be what do you think is an ingredient or two that can help ~ lack a better term, get that spade and start to dig away at those issues? What do you think's an ~ mine would be positivity and gym, but I don't want to share too much because I'm not a professional.~ what's maybe an ingredient or two that you would have the to help you dig out of your dark times? I think that it's really again focusing on yourself, like, you know, what brings me happiness, what brings me peace, and then, you know, having the you know, just being able to do that, do those things. And to be self aware and notice, like before it you know, get ahead of it. Like, gosh, I'm starting to feel myself slip again. What do I need to do? And I think writing is a big thing, and I'm not talking about everybody needs to write their memoir or their autobiography or anything. But just even Journaling. a journal, yeah, just writing out your feelings, it really can help bring clarity to what's going on with you. You think, I know, I'm I have it in my head, but once you start writing, a lot of times things come out that you didn't expect and it can really take you, you know, to a different place.~ Mm-hmm. I also think that a lot of people don't think of therapy. They think, I tried counseling before, I tried therapy before, it wasn't You know, I d didn't have a good therapist, it didn't work for me, whatever, but you have to, you know, it takes patience and diligence. You have to find the right fit for you. And when you are depressed or you're anxious or both, a lot of times those go together. You a lot of times don't have the patience and diligence to go through a few different therapists or counselors or whatever or different Right. methods. So it's kind of it's kind of hard to get to that point, but I think that's really important. But if I could Mm-hmm. say one thing It's gonna be writing. Just write it out. Start journaling. Yeah. that and that probably would answer I was gonna ask, you know, how do you how do you find the things that make you at peace and and that make and I'm I would assume that would go right back to probably writing, probably journaling, you know, and that's how you figure some of that stuff out. Well I think too, just wha follow your interests. You know, they they used to say like follow your bliss and I think it's so important really. You know, like I had started painting, you know, just before the pandemic actually and that's when I quit nursing was during the pandemic. So I was starting to feel myself get really frustrated with nursing and it's like what can I do that brings me out of this? And it's like I've always loved art. I never thought of myself as an artist, I never thought about painting anything other than a wall or drawing or anything and I've really about it since I was an adult. But I thought, what the heck? I'm gonna get a paint set and just try it out. And I loved it. And I loved it. And I did it nonstop for a few years. And now I just paint occasionally. But ~ but yeah, just trying it. Like, ~ maybe I you know, I'm interested in this. Maybe I should just try it. You know, maybe get out of your comfort zone a little bit, you know. all can we find thank you. ya? Like w as far as your social media, if if you want to be found of course, but where all where all can we find find you and and what all do you are you involved in? So I have ~ a YouTube channel, which is just my name, ~ Pamela Topjian T-O-P-J-I-A-N I have other videos besides, but the podcast is also on there. Everything in social media for me is mainly focused around my podcast. I do have a personal like Facebook and Instagram, but I'm not on those very much and I don't really give those out very much. But ~ on Instagram I have@holisticconnections.pamela. obviously for the podcast and yeah and then my books are on Amazon.~ it's easier to put my name in the Amazon search than to put the titles because other things will come up. I have a link tree. It's mostly centered around again the podcast stuff or the youth that I do on the YouTube channel.~ and the link tree is just my name. So you know L I N K T R dot E E slash Pamela Topjian Yeah. All right. Thank you. what was the name of the podcast? It's Holistic Connections, Conversations with Holistic Practitioners. It's on most podcast platforms and then in a playlist on my YouTube channel. And they can people can listen to the audio version as well, like on Apple Podcasts or any of those. Yeah. Yep. Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll definitely check that out 'cause like I I've I've always been interested in that. it usually ends up costing me money when I start getting back into it again 'cause I'm like, you know, Right. Right. all of a sudden I'm out there, you know, buying ear candles and juicers and everything else, you know. So yeah. But Right. I it is something that interests me because I do think that there's It's not a coincidence that human beings now have all these crazy diseases that didn't even exist, Right. you know, hundreds of years ago. So I I'm Yeah. it it it is something that that I'm fascinated in. Thank you so much. Appreciate Thanks so much, Pam. I'm gonna I'm gonna stop.