The Waiting Game | Michael Husain Exposes Basketball’s Biggest Injustice | Ep. 59

They changed the game. The three-point shot, the slam dunk contest, the fast, high-energy style of play—that all came from the ABA. But when the NBA and ABA merged, the players who helped build modern basketball were left with nothing.

In this episode of Mosaic Minds Podcast, Michael Husain, the writer and director of The Waiting Game, joins us to talk about the injustice faced by former ABA players and how his documentary is exposing the truth.

Many retired ABA legends are struggling—some are homeless, some can’t afford life-saving medicine, and they’ve been denied the pensions and recognition they deserve. This documentary, The Waiting Game, shines a light on their battle and the efforts of the Dropping Dimes Foundation to get them the help they need.

Nick and Jason attended a screening of The Waiting Game at Newfields and were blown away by its impact. Now, we sit down with Michael to discuss the fight for justice, the NBA’s response, and how this film could rewrite basketball history.

🔥 Watch now and join the conversation!

📌 Learn more about The Waiting Game & Michael Husain:
The Waiting Game Official Website: https://thewaitinggamemovie.com/
Dropping Dimes Foundation: https://droppingdimes.org/
The Waiting Game Facebook Page: https://facebook.com/p/The-Waiting-Game-Movie-61565038380468/
The Waiting Game Insta: https://www.instagram.com/thewaitinggamemovie/
Good Vibes Insta: https://www.instagram.com/goodvibesmedia/


📌 Michael Husain's Contact & Social Media:
Personal Website: https://goodvibesmedia.com
Email: mhusain@goodvibesmedia.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michaelhusain12/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michael.husain/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-husain-1b5435

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Transcript

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All right. Okay. So we'll go ahead and get started. Now when we do get started, Michael, do you want to talk about any other projects that you have going on or is there anything else that you want to promote besides the waiting game? Just slightly. I mean, I guess we I did a short called the sugar man on the boxer sugar ray seals We're so it's it did really well. It's just a short a 14 minute piece I mean, we're fundraising to try and turn it into a half an hour for PBS, but other than that, no Okay. All right. Welcome back to another episode of Mosaic Minds podcast. I'm Nick. This is Jason. And today we're, if you've been with the podcast for a while and from the beginning of the podcast, we've been big supporters of Dropping Dimes Foundation. And we've had some incredible guests like Bob Nettelicki and Scott Tarter, Darnell Hillman, that shared their stories and their mission to help, you know, some of the former ABA players. So A couple of weeks ago, Jason and I, had the opportunity to go see the documentary, The Waiting Game at Newfield's here in Indianapolis. And it was really powerful. The documentary, it doesn't just tell about the history of the ABA, but it shows the real impact that this league had on the game in general. And you know, kind of the disservice that was done to the ABA players once the merge went through with, you know, between the NBA and the ABA. So today we're going to have the director and the writer of the waiting game, Michael Hussein on, and he's going to kind of go into a little more detail about, you know, how he got the idea for this and how this all came about. So, Michael, welcome to the show. Thanks for being with us today. Absolutely. Yeah. So why don't you just, let's just start out by, how did you come about getting an interest for this cause in the first place? Is this something that like, did you know Scott? Or is this something that you just kind of fell upon and you're like, wow, this is a, this is a big deal. We need to, we need to talk about this. I grew up in Terre Haute, so I'm a basketball fan and and you know was a Pacers fan we could get a fuzzy signal from Channel 4 in Terre Haute and so I remember the ABA days and But I was nothing more than a fan until I actually met Scott Tartter in December of 2021 and I just liked him he's nice guy, and he was telling me a little bit about dropping dimes and its reason for being was to help ABA players that were struggling financially. And I think probably like many people, just thought at first it was like, these are guys who just did poor financial planning and that's why you're helping them. And he was like, no, no, no, it's very different than that. They didn't make any money during their time as players. They were making, you know, in the early days of league. 25 grand a year and in later years maybe six figures, but that would be a rare player. They didn't really have a lot of money, but he told me about basically a business deal. The merger is what I would always heard it called and he called it something else, but he was definitely not calling it a merger. that it was a business deal gone bad essentially and that lots of ABA players were really struggling. what he described was guys being evicted from their homes, sleeping under bridges, not able to afford life-saving medicine because they didn't have health care. And to me, that was stunning because I remembered Darnell Hillman. I remembered Dr. J. These were the elite athletes in the world of my childhood. And so how is it possible that guys of that caliber could be struggling in that big a way? But it was true. so dropping down has been formed to help them. And the thing that really hooked me is he said, we've been negotiating with the NBA. And at this point, he was saying for about 13 months and it's been a long negotiation, but I think we're very close. I think. within about six weeks they're going to announce a pretty significant settlements the wrong word but but something to help these guys and I thought well that well that's actually kind of a feel-good story and so could we follow this I'm a you know I'm a story guy so like could we follow you for six weeks until that happens you can never recapture that kind of a win and he allowed it and we followed for six weeks and then because it was supposed to be at the all-star break the NBA all-star break in February and All-star game came and went no announcement. So You know the following week he Calls the NBA. It says, you hey what happened? They said it's just some technicalities got across some tees Gonna be about a month, but this is happening. Okay, great. So month comes month goes nothing And that went on for a while. And so, and you know, you have to realize that these ABA guys, they're in their 70s, some of them in their 80s. So there was an urgency to their story that I didn't realize at first, and certainly the NBA didn't realize, because guys started getting sick. And then guys started dying. And I could see it taking its toll on Scott. Now Scott co-founded the Dropping Dimes Foundation with Dr. John Abrams and they were very ably assisted by another guy named Ted Green and so they they all deserve you know credit because they've been working on this for years but Scott was the guy who was negotiating with the NBA so it was him who kind of became the focal point of our story and Scott was really struggling you could just see it in his face and I think I didn't even really know the extent of it until a while later, but So what started off as a 10-minute short feel-good film was sort of unfolding into a bit of a tragedy and and so We followed and followed and followed and then finally in late in that summer the NBA did come through with About a 25 million dollar pot so to speak that Guys who? had played at least three years in the ABA could draw from as What sort of seemed like a pension, but they would never call it a pension because there were legal implications to that so they called it a recognition payment and So if you played three years in the ABA you got about $300 per month per year of service so you know maybe you got a thousand dollars if you a month if you played three years and maybe 2,000 if you played six years. So, you know, it was something. It's not gonna save you from eviction and if you got a serious medical issue, it's not gonna really put a big dent in that. But it was a measure of respect. so I think it was, I think it was meaningful to the guys, but there's clearly still work to be done. And so a lot of the film, ultimately, So we finished filming the dropping dime story in August or so of 2022. Then we had to go back and tell the backstory. Like what's the ABA? To guys our age, we may remember it, then the red, white, and blue ball and all the fun that the league brought. But to guys my son's age, no clue that it even existed. And so when I started telling my son or his friends or think guys like that, and girls. My daughter played basketball. When I started telling my kids, look, the NBA game that you love and that I love, its origin story is actually largely the ABA. It's not the NBA itself. So the ABA innovated the three-point shot. The ABA created the slam dunk contest. The ABA embraced a pace of play and an athleticism that the NBA did not. The the ABA was wide open to black players and so it created tremendous opportunity for black players which were the NBA was integrated at that point but in a limited way. Teams had two, three, maybe four players and rarely would all those players see the court at the same time and in the late 60s. So the ABA just didn't care. The ABA wanted the best basketball product they could put on the floor. And if they were black, white, green, they didn't care. They would put you out there. And so black culture and sort of fashion and a lot of the entertainment value, halftime shows, all that came out of the ABA in terms of basketball. So incredibly. influential into the game that is now worth billions and billions and billions of dollars. So that's why the ABA was so important. We had to go back and tell that story. So we went back and interviewed Bob Costas, who got his broadcasting start calling ABA games in St. Louis. We caught up with Julius Irving, Spencer Haywood, Dan Issel. You know Darnell Hillman became a really important interview for us. You mentioned Bob Nettlecki. He's in the film as well So we were able to get a lot of just great people of the era to talk about the importance of the ABA and to talk about the kind of Injustice that would that had happened to those players those you can kind of equate them to like factory workers when a you know, a merger happens in a business and the workers who created all the value in the company don't really get taken care of in the business deal. That's kind of what happened to these ABA guys. They created the modern NBA, the modern basketball, the game of professional basketball, and they got almost nothing out of the deal. It's really interesting that, you know, think that the, the point of the movie was very fascinating, you know, very heartwarming, but one of the craziest things is I think that the importance of the movie is just the, the getting the word out there because, know, like you said, anybody and everybody that finds out about this, they're either shocked or they didn't realize how, how deep it went. So I think that it's very important that, that this movie exists because I mean, I had never even heard of the dropping dimes foundation until we had. Bob on the show matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I thought he said marching dimes and I was like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, I I think, think if this, you know, just getting the word out there and getting this movie out there, I think we'll, you know, it's always about the pressure, right? So you get that pressure on the NBA. I think that could go a really long way. Well, yeah, it's interesting that you mention that because, you know, really the first person to amplify the story was a writer for the star, Dana Benbow. know, Dana wrote stories about dropping dimes, like the first story she wrote, and I learned this after the fact, you know, shame on me for not reading the star enough. But, you know, her first story was about a former pacer, Charlie Jordan, who... in 2015, 2016 if I've got the dates right, just wanted to get a suit to go to church and he couldn't afford it. He was struggling with some health issues as well. so, you know, just a very, such a small, meaningful measure, right, to get a suit to go to church. And so Mel Daniels, who was instrumental in sort of kind of ringing the bell and saying, hey, these guys, my ABA brothers, or struggling, what are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna do about it? And so Mel was there. It was the first kind of gift, so to speak, that Dropping Dimes did. They had been formed that year or the year prior. And so they went to a big and tall shop here in Indianapolis and got Charlie Jordan a couple of suits. it was just a meaningful thing for Charlie and just the beginning of people understanding that these guys need some help. then what Dropping Dimes learned and what Dana learned and continued to amplify in her storytelling was that the problems were much more dire than a suit. There were guys who, down in Kentucky, there was a player who... had his heat turned off and was heating his trailer with a kerosene lamp and just very sad things for any human being, let alone guys who brought so much entertainment and we worship athletes. In their prime, they're gods. They can do things that we cannot and it defies what you believe can be done and then, you know, father time is undefeated and they'll get older and get forgotten and these guys unfortunately had gotten forgotten. So Dana wrote stories all the way through the unfolding of this story. I think sitting in the audience as a fan, you know, just to give a little background, there was a young lady there that I believe was the first state champion. They were talking about the greatest team ever assembled. Sorry. I'm not, I gotta be careful what I say, but around 1969, I believe was said it was the greatest high school basketball team of on, you know, of that era, you know, ever basically. And then, you know, I think future cities that this organ is. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. was, who became a Pacer ultimately, but he was a part of the Indianapolis Washington team that also had George McGinnis on it. I think what I want the audience to hear and understand is when this movie comes to your city, you need to go watch it. Cause I'm a basketball historian through and through two years old was my first basketball goal on a grass on the barn. I played for 40 years, right? being mid forties, you know, that's all we did, you know, on the side of a silo, but transitioning back to where you're at, you know, I'm not, I'm not too prideful and I'm going to tell you something that hopefully hits you. I had tears in my eyes four and five times and I'm going to tear up right now because it's so crazy to think that this guy has a car lot of eight cars that all are worth more than what my house is worth. And a young man that was the pioneer was the trailblazer of the whole entire NBA. Can't get that sense of dignity and respect. mean, without those guys, you don't have guys making with all due respect, $500,000 a game. I've heard statistics. The last guy on an NBA bench is making more than every player, every manager and every coach on an ABA roster in today's dollars. So like you start to hear that and you understand that and you see that the fact that you were able to encapsulate that and put it in a bottle and kind of throw it in the ocean and let the world see it, man, it's just so inspiring because I'm sitting over there. know, I'm trying to game by composure and like every 15 minutes I'm looking over there. And like, I'm trying to like, kind of like be subtle or like act like I've got itches and stuff, but I can't tell you enough how, man, it was just, it was great to be a fan that night. And the thing that I wanted to say that I want you to hear as well that I think is important to hear when the mic was being passed around, when you guys were on the panel after is over. The thing that I wanted to say is, is I didn't want to get booed and make a joke to say, I know we're in Pacers country. I know we're in three one seven, but you guys are the trailblazers. Right. Kind of a play on words because when you trailblazing you show and you understand and you see what better city is that? And then you've got an all time. Are you great Alan Henderson there? I thought that was a great touch because I'm like, wow, last time I saw him was 1995, 30 years ago in an all star game as a junior. So in other words, you've got the historical background. You've got the right city. You've got the right people there. And then, uh, and then a player that I get to call on the way home tonight and tell my dad was there in Louisville. I mean, it's just, you're, doing great things. So I just wanted to first say that now when I, when I asked you this, you as a, I could call you a lot of things, but I'm going to call you a producer or writer. Well, there you go. There you go. But I mean, I could call your producer or writer, composition of material, whatever it is, why did this hit your heart string? And you say, that's it. As opposed to, I'm going to put my thoughts and feelings into another project. That really evolved. And I think that's true of most of the stories. Documentaries take a long time to do. So for instance, I did a film prior to this in 2021 on addiction and how addiction hit Brown County, Indiana. We just looked at one county. And it was called The Addict's Wake. Thankfully, we and my family had not had any addiction issues to speak of or and so which is somewhat rare, you know, and then But I didn't know that at the time and so I started off with that for instance It just was a human story of people struggling and trying to recover and trying to redeem and and Once I started learning about sort of the strength it takes to go through recovery, that was another layer that kind of drew me in as a storyteller. Like those are some of the strongest people you're ever going to meet if you ever meet somebody in recovery. And then learning about how intertwined the underlying pieces of addiction are, where it's not just a choice, so to speak, which is a common way of thinking about it. There's usually a great deal of pain and mental illness that's wrapped into it. now we're getting to something where we've had mental illness in our family. So now it's getting closer and closer. So the story sort of pulled me in step by step. With the ABA piece, I'm a sports fan. I've done a lot of work with ESPN and folks like that. And I love the stories that come out of sports. I thought the ABA was just a really cool league. That was my memory of it. It was cool. So I thought, you know, that's attractive. But it was really the humanity of Scott Tartter that really started to pull me in. Like, I'm watching this guy struggle. And he's struggling with something he could get rid of in a minute. He didn't have to be doing this. was kind of, you know, it's sort of popular to say he was on a hero's journey, but he kind of was, you know, it's, and so I was just watching that unfold. And then when I got to know and interview Darnell and Bob Nettlelakey and a couple of other guys we got in the film who are not Indiana based Ralph Simpson who lives in in Denver was a superb player in the ABA Multiple time all-star as was Jimmy Jones who now lives in Las Vegas Met and interviewed both of those guys. Those are guys who are really struggling Ralph had some serious serious health issues that Hard issues that he was not going to get taken care of because the bills would have been too high Jimmy is in pretty good health thankfully but you know financially he's driving an uber to try and just make ends meet and so the the the pride that those guys have and the you know when you meet a guy like Darnell Hillman there is a dignity to Darnell Hillman that is sort of unmatched and and so they all care about each other they like the ABA was really tight And so they call themselves sort of a brotherhood or a fraternity and I think it's true You know if you call Nettolick he he'll have everybody else's number like if you want to get a number of an avi a guy called Natalie because he's got them all and And so It's just That that sense of I guess in a lack of a better phrase community between those guys that that was another thing that just sort of kept pulling me in so It became much bigger than sports. was attracted to sports initially, but it really quickly got past sports. Yeah, one thing I thought was interesting about the film audit and realize is I remember the ABA, but I wasn't a huge follower of it. So I thought it was really interesting the way that it was described as, like they were, they were the pizzazz, you know, like they were, they were, they were the first to allow like tattoos and like Afros and, and things like that. You know, I thought that was really cool. Almost like, you know, like the wizard of Oz, you know, like you got the NBA black and white, and then all of a sudden, boom, you know, it's color, you know, brought in the, uh, brought in the pizzazz to the league. And yet, you know, we don't, Like you said, people younger than a certain age have no idea who the ABA even are. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, and if you don't know who the ABA was, it's hard to imagine a world, it's hard to imagine the world before color, right? In the black and white films or whatever. So it's hard to imagine a world in which players don't express themselves with whatever their hair choice is, their facial hair, the clothes they wear, but whatever. It's the expression and the personality and some would say it's gone. maybe overboard with the sort of personal branding, but in general, it makes the game more interesting. Basketball is a great sport because you can see the players. They're not like in football, hidden under equipment. So their personalities are really evident. And so the ABA embraced that, didn't try and hide it. The NBA was described at that point as being corporate. It was... You know, you dressed in sort of a suit or nicer clothes as you traveled and your hair was a certain length and you know, you can imagine, you know, as people have told stories from the 80s of what IBM was like, right? Everybody had a blue suit and a white shirt and you marched in and so, you know, I think to a degree the NBA was that. And so the ABA shook that right up. I think when Darnell was talking about the ABA for me, it was interesting to hear that it's a, cycle is kind of the same now that if you're six foot nine, you don't have to be a back to the basket center. If you can shoot the 25 footer, you can rebound, you can high fly, you can use some pizzazz. That's what it's all about. So back, back to the movie when you're, when you're putting that together, from a fan perspective and in a story of the game, which is what, you know, for the second time I'm considering myself, but what the most profound thing that actually teared me up the most was is the timeline that was, how do I want to say this? Your production value was very simplistic in the way that it was presented, but it just literally showed that I'm going to use my own words, but I'm trying to get the audience to kind of, to, to dig into it, investigate it. It was heart wrenching to say, Hey, over these 15 months, when said organization drug their toes in the sand, we had X amount of funerals that were planned. I, I, I'm not trying to take it to that level, but it's just like, man, it's like, that's super frustrating to think that something as simple as stopping an infection, a knee surgery, dental work X, Y, and Z. And then these guys are literally the guys that like, how many one name guys do you have? mean, you got Moses Malone, you got ice, you got doc like I throw my hands up and I say, man, you know, you can't get bigger than that. Those, those are the, those are the pioneers of the game. And then when you put all that together, the production value is very nice to see that. And, and it was disheartening to see it wasn't meant to, but when you hear about a current guy that drops a million dollars in, and I'm doing my math, but I think you get about a million four as a match. mean, in corporate America, what is it? 6 % match or whatever and you're getting 140 % match on a 140 % match. think we would all be living in mansions if that was the case. And then that's not to downtrodden the NBA current. That's just to say there needs to be recognition and cross population there to say, these are our brothers that, that were pioneers of the game. mean, Darnell could kick the bottom of the backboard for heaven's sake, you know, first slam dunk champion. mean that the the top. Exactly. Exactly. And then you see today's game and I got to be honest, there's, there's parts of the game that are great. And there's other parts that you kind of, you kind of shake your head at. So when you, when you do this and you present this and you're from a fan's perspective to see what that individual city, not saying there was a difference in perception, but how was, how was the, the Louisville and then what's maybe the next city or two that you plan to kind of do the barnstorming, if you will, in those ABA cities. Yeah, so as we're trying to get the film out there and get it seen, there's a few ways you do that. The most traditional way that people would understand is, used to be you go to cable, now it's a streamer, a Netflix or a Hulu or whatever. And we have a representative who is out pitching that to them, but it's a long game to do that. And certainly far from guaranteed, no matter how good your film is. The road is littered with good films that didn't make it onto one of those services. And some crap that did make it onto the service. But anyway, so what you can do as a filmmaker, and you know in this piece, to me, we're sort of talking about it as important, and there is an important piece of it. There were guys who were left out of the pot of money that was provided in the summer of 2022. And so there's work that needs to be done because there are guys still struggling. And as our families, right? So there aren't a tremendous amount of widow's benefits. There's need. And so it's important to get the film seen. And I don't want to wait a year for a Netflix deal. So we're trying to take the film out in community screenings. And so we've done that four or five times here in Indianapolis. We premiered at the Heartland Film Festival, then like when you guys saw the film on the 28th of February, we were at Newfields, there was a beautiful theater there, trying to just get the word out and then go to other cities as well. while our next screening is actually in Anabee and Terre Haute, not an ABA city, but they were, I grew up in Terre Haute. Thank you. Lots of, lots of ABA fans there, I know that. And, but then we went to Louisville. So another ABA city. They had the Kentucky Colonels and what a great time. I didn't know exactly what it would be like not being in Indiana because, you know, again, John Abrams, who did a lot of the medical consulting that those guys needed, you know, in for, for dropping dimes, but he was a ball boy for the ABA Pacers. Circle. And then Scott Tarter grew up on the east side of Indianapolis. went to games with his dad, Indiana Pacers guy. So a lot of the story kind of hubbed around the Pacers in Indiana and what they meant. But there's really just representative of what the Kentucky Colonel's meant to Louisville, what the Denver Rockets meant to Denver, the Utah Stars meant to Salt Lake City and so on. Every ABA city had kind of a little bit of love affair with its team. And so. Louisville was, I wasn't sure what to expect, but we got three Kentucky colonels to come out and be a part of it. We got Joe Hamilton, Wayne Chapman, whose son, Rex, played in the NBA for many years. And then Louie Dampier showed up, kind of unexpectedly. And Louie's not big to go out to public events. He's, I don't want to say reclusive, but he's a private guy. And so he showed up and I don't think he was quite sure what he was getting into. again, like we talked about the brotherhood, I think he came because Wayne and Joe were there, not for me. And then it turned out he really liked the film. And so he actually came up for the Q &A session afterwards. And I just think had a nice night because the film, yes, it's to raise awareness. there's a story that's a little difficult. in places, you know, it's emotional what happened to these guys, but it is a celebration of these guys too. We want them to get that recognition. I love when at the end of this film, people stand up for a standing ovation, not for me or the filmmaking, but for those guys. And so that's really cool to watch. And it's happened at almost every screening. I think that your, your Q and a thing that you do at the end, think is an amazing idea. I assume you said you did do that in Louisville then. that something that you you'll do that at all of the majority of the showings? we will as many as we can if we've we've got the time and we've got got a you know people there We will we will do it Yeah, I think that was a great idea because then you get to kind of see the human side. You know, like one thing that that Scott said that I thought was was interesting. I think it was Scott that said it, but it was definitely about him was that, you know, you don't you don't think of a lawyer as somebody that's that's giving back, you know, to the community, you know, like do any so he's so humble about it. You know, it's not not somebody that. cares to, don't, I don't think to, you know, put himself up there and be like, Hey, look what, look what I'm doing. You know, it doesn't seem like that kind of guy. So that's, that's really, that's really interesting. And I liked the Q and a, because like I say, it kind of humanizes some of the people, not only in the film, in the film, but also the basketball players as well. was a special evening for Nick and I, cause we were already somewhat connected to several people in the film. seeing them on the big screen right in front of us, but a cool residual that I want you to hear. There was a couple of couples behind us that when we were shaking hands with a few people that we had already known, they weren't even basketball fans. So I think we have to say that it's, it's kind of a curator at a museum, right? Is kind of like you brought that to life because black history was celebrated there. A film was celebrated there. Non-basketball fans were actually there, but there was a ton of basketball fans. So I think it was a cross section of people because I would think if I'm going to go to that with all due respect. I'm a diehard basketball fan. know, I'm going to 20 games a year, you know, but it was so cool to see people that, that's who that person is. Or, yeah, I recognize that name. And then seeing multi-generational, I'm going to let Nick tell you real quick, but he brought his son there and Nick, want you to share the experience that your son had had at the. Yeah. Actually I was going to, I think, I think it you I was talking to on Facebook was either you or Scott on Facebook where, I was saying that my son, he likes basketball. But know, he he told me then he's like, Dad, that was really good. He's like, and I don't even like documentaries. OK, yeah, yeah. So, you know, but he loved it. And I think that's a good point, too, that you don't have to be a basketball fan to appreciate this movement and to appreciate this film, you know, because it's something that I think that everybody that's human can relate to. Well, I have to give credit to a couple places there. My editor and the guy who shot it all, Brian Boyd, I, and he's a producer on the film as well, we spent a lot of time just kind of turning it over, looking at what if we did this, what if we did that. So, you know, a lot of the creative decisions, they don't happen without Brian's help. And then honestly, my wife, you know, she is... my sounding board and she is not a sports fan. So if it doesn't connect with her as a human being, it's not working. so as much time as I spend on these things, it better work for her. We're going to have a problem. yeah, she really gave me some great notes on like, you know, okay, this legal journey that these guys are on. I don't understand it. I'm lost. So we had to simplify like, okay, let's, let's. break it up a little bit and let's, you know, and there were other times where, you know, she doesn't know who Dr. J is. You know, she got a reference point on Michael Jordan because she grew up in Chicago, but other than that, so, you know, letting her, letting Dr. J's archival footage just play. so you don't have to tell, I didn't have to tell her once we did that. She could see it. She's like, that's like Michael Jordan, what he's doing. Like, yeah, he was Jordan before Jordan. So you got it. And so now understand that why he was so important to the NBA, and that's why this next step is so important, and so on and so on. So really try to tell stories from a human point of view. I've often described this as a human justice story wrapped in sports clothing. It is a sports story, and everybody's... dressed in basketball uniforms, but it's really a human story. It's about, as you guys have mentioned, sort of dignity or lack of dignity that in the way that these guys were treated. so everybody can kind of understand that. You know, people can see and smell disrespect. I think basketball speaks an international language, you know, as the Europeans are taking, you know, a six year old and sending them to a basketball college slash elementary school, first grade over here. You know, I don't want to get controversial to you, but I'm telling you right now, that's why the Europeans are catching up to us. You shouldn't be able to go to a basketball academy, but if you're taking six or seven hours worth of classes and you have a nice gym to play in here in Indy, even that's acceptable to me. Right. You got to have that combination of the two. So when you're at the perspective that you're in, what is the definition of success when you go to these cities? And I'm just not even going to speculate on it all. I'm just going to turn it over to you and let the expert speak on that. it's an interesting question with multiple answers because, I'll go back to the addiction film that I talked about earlier. There were times where we had community screenings with that film. Gosh, we're only maybe 35 people, 30 people showed up. It was like, we kind of look at each other and say, is not what we'd hoped for. First of all, you're not making any money, right? So that's one thing, because you do have to, it's a business here, you have to make some money on the screenings. So then there's that, but then one person would stand up and talk about how much the film that they had just seen, one of those 35 people, had impacted them. And it was like, well, That's everything, that's why we made the film. So this was a success. This film had impact. And so I think that's true. So in Louisville, we had maybe 120 people, which is smaller than, I think we had 300 at Newfields. So I don't think the size of the crowd is necessarily the ultimate determinant. It's important, right? We market the films, we try and get out on social media or sports radio or whatever and talk about it. Because we want people to know and I think once people know they'll make a plan to get to see the film. But if you have a smaller audience than you expect, there's still deep impact that can happen. So, you know, the way it hit you, was, you know, thank you for telling me that. It's very nice to hear as a filmmaker, as a storyteller that you connected. But... you know, that allowed for this, right? I mean, so you guys see the film, you're moved by it, and so now we're talking about it again. So that's success. That your son who doesn't like documentaries saw one that spoke to him. That's a success. So I would, because I think there's a couple things you wanna be able to do. You wanna... You know, I get back to sort of the business model, right? So you you want enough support whether it's sponsorship for those those screenings or or fans who come and attend To do you know to do enough business to make the next screening possible, right? Because it okay they all feed on one another But you also want to impact the story which is that there's still work to be done and so one of the most gratifying things that has happened through this journey with this film. We premiered at the Heartland Film Festival in October and filled up that theater, that same theater at Newfield, which holds 500 people. And it was great. was a, know, crowd was into it. was, it was loud. Players got a standing ovation, all of that. But about a week later, Scott Tartter goes and picks up his mail and in it is a check for the largest single donation that Dropping Dimes has ever received from a woman who had been in the crowd and seen it and been moved and wanted to do something about it. And so they've had a bunch of contributions come to Dropping Dimes because people have seen the film. And so that's what we should be doing, right? So you never, I never even met that person that night. So, you know. That was a success and I didn't even know it. right. Well, I want to, know we already kind of talked about it. I want to make sure that we go back and everybody knows how they can watch this movie and where you're going to be at next. This will air on the 18th. So like we can use that as the base for the timeline of when, you know, when the next showing is and all that. But that said real quick off, kind of off the subject of the movie, what are some other projects that you have going on and some other ways that people can, find some of your work? Well, my personal website is good vibes media commets in the name of my company But you know the waiting game has its own website, which is the waiting game movie? calm and Most screenings that are going to be coming up. They're listed there You can't actually watch the film there. It's it's $10 and you can click through and and watch the film on at home But largely we're doing it through community screenings. so in terms of other films, I did do a short film called The Sugar Man, which came out last summer, about a 14 minute film about the boxer Sugar Ray Seals, who was a 1972 Olympic gold medalist, the only gold medalist in boxing that year. And that's the Munich games where there was the terrorist attack. He had a really nice professional career, was on a championship level. And about 10 years into that career, gets thumbed in the eye. because he needed the money, he kept fighting. And now he can't see when the blows are coming. He gets hit in the other eye. And long story short, over the course of a few years, he winds up losing sight in both eyes. So he not only retired, but he couldn't coach boxing. He couldn't do the thing that had brought him a lot of joy and all his notoriety. And so eight failed surgeries to try and get vision back. Finally, Dr. John Abrams, who is the doctor in the waiting game, the eye doctor, feels was living in Indianapolis because his wife was from here. And he finds Dr. Abrams. Abrams. takes a shot to see if he could get him some useful vision. And Abrams is an incredible surgeon. And so they, got him eyesight back and one eye and it's really, really good eyesight. Like we followed him at a four year checkup and he's like close, not quite 2020, but really good vision and that one eye. so, Seals is this amazing character. He carries his gold medal with him every day in his pocket. So if you met him, he would pull it out of his pocket. He let you hold it. He'd let you take a picture with it because he says, you know, like this is America's gold. It's not just mine. It's America's. So cool. So, so anyway, we want to take that 14 minute film and expand it to a half an hour and put it on PBS. So we're just starting to fundraise for that. But, know, right now, so much of my efforts are about telling the story of the waiting game and trying to get people out to the next screening. We're going to do two screenings in Terre Haute, one in my old high school, which is really going to be fun for me. So I went to school at West Vigo, is out west of Terre Haute, and we're going to screen out there on March 26th. And there's tickets available. I'm sure if we don't yet, we'll have a link up on thewaitinggamemovie.com. So you can find it, or if you search West Vigo Waiting Game, I'm sure it'll come up. And then we're going to do another one at Rose-Hulman there in, I believe it's April 12th, I have to double check that, April 12th or April 13th. And then we're going to be in a couple more film festivals outside of this area, in New Jersey and Asbury Park at the Garden State Film Festival on March 29th, and out in Phoenix, at the Phoenix Film Festival. April 3rd, 4th and 5th. And so, you know, it's starting to expand out that way. you know, our bread and butter is still going to be community screening. So we want to take it. I just had a conversation with a theater in Memphis. So we're trying to book the next round of screenings. Memphis had not one, but two ABA franchises, although not simultaneously. They had the Memphis Sounds and the Memphis Tams. So... that we, I think we've got a theater there that looks like it'll work. And so probably in about six to eight weeks, we'll have a screening down in Memphis. I would love to get it to Denver as soon as we can. There's mentioned Ralph Simpson, who's there. His health is not great. And while he's seen the film and loves it, I want him to be in one of those audiences where people stand up and cheer. So I really want to get it to Denver. I want to get it to San Antonio. That's that's where Bob Nettolick he Kind of lives down near there now, and they're a great ABA town and so You know, but it's gonna probably take Some corporate underwriting to actually make that happen because the chase for me to try and find you know a sponsor in Denver and really probably a grouping of sponsors in Denver and a grouping of sponsors in San Antonio and I don't know those cities. It's a that would be a very long and tall mountain to do it. I'll do it if we need to but it's going to be hard. So I think if we can find some corporate underwriting where somebody wants to sponsor those screenings in those cities that would make a lot of sense and be incredibly helpful to getting the message out. But we're going to go to ABA cities. I think we'll wind up going to other Indiana cities, too. I think that I've had some inquiries to take it up to Fort Wayne, for instance. I think we'll take it to Bloomington. So yeah. And you know, and actually with Bloomington, what's interesting beyond. if you if you know Bloomington, like the Buzzkirk Chumlee Theater right there on Kirkwood is a beautiful theater. and a place that you could hold a community screening. But the university there, I mean, I think this is the type of film that law school students ought to see, that business students ought to see. Like this is kind of what happens if you take humanity out of your decision-making process. And so I think we'll have audiences there. I graduated from IU myself, so I'd love for it to be integrated into the university at sub-level. So we'll get there. Now, Michael, I get to do the fun thing to give you your official send off. So the official send off I have for you is, is non-waiting game transition and back into waiting game. You ever heard of Wolf Field being a Tara, Tara Hoshin? Wolf Field there at the track, right at Indiana State University. There's like about six aluminum basketball goals that are single posted. They probably stood there for 30 or 40 years. Yes. Okay. So what's cool about that is, is. The backboards were loose and there was four bolts on them. And I think you know what I'm going to say here. I played basketball there six, seven days a week for about three years. And I kid you not, I shot 85 to 90 % from the field. One handed, two handed shot put throws because all you had to do is hit the top of the backboard and then it just funnel in. People wanted to fight me. We'd have 15 teams lined up and we were not the most talented. We'd go 20 and 0 on the night just because Anywhere that you hit top backward, it would just fall in. So that's my, that's my terror story. I've actually got a couple people that I'm going to invite to the screening there that are terror oceans that now live in the Plainfield, Indianapolis area. So that'll be a great opportunity. here's the sendoff for waiting game. So I was an extra in blue chips. So I met Al Bundy. was, yeah, it was, well, no, no, I was the guy that was at the baseball all-star game that there was lightning and stuff. And I had baseball cleats on. you know, walking around in the celebration and Bobby Knight was right there, the Hollywood cameras. Here's what I'm going to tell you being an historian, not only of playing basketball, but being in basketball. Let me not butch the saying, but it's a 49 other States. It's a sport and Indiana it's basketball. You're in a perfect spot for it. Indiana is the epicenter of basketball. think that's, that's, you know, When you got a guy that we mentioned, McGinnis just got the gym named after, if I'm not mistaken there at George Washington High School, that kind of ties in the waiting game. It was a waiting game for you to make the film. It was a waiting game that unfortunately had an expiration date on some lives that could have been impacted. But it's more of a human story that transcends sports, real world, culture. It doesn't matter where you're from, this should touch your heartstrings because when you really look at it, The effect of basketball that's had on the economy of just Indianapolis is phenomenal. New neighborhoods. the WNBA franchise, as you well know, is, is expanding with a practice facility. That, I mean, that's great to see, but when you, when you watch that film and you're given an opportunity to take steps into that, it's nice to see that the bridge and the gap is at least starting to build over the river to where we're not on opposite sides of the earth anymore. We're at least transitioning to the middle. As more people see it, more people get excited about it. I know you want to, I know that where you want to take it, but it can be taken there. just got to keep after it. You you've you're working hard, but honestly, you got to tell your friends about it because I don't want to call it unheralded because it's, it's partially heralded in my opinion. But what I'm trying to say is whatever I want to say is you're getting there. You're, making inroads. You're building, you're building that foundation because it's phenomenal to see. three players in the city that's honestly two and a half hours from your base in my opinion. And they came out and they showed out. So imagine what Memphis is going to do. Imagine what Tara Hote's going to do. I think people will start to come out of the woodworks and it's good to see a cross section of people from Nick's son, know, teenager years all the way up to, you know, 75 and 80 year olds and anything in between. So great work. Keep up the projects, keep doing the human interaction and keep telling the story from your side of the desk. And I mean, it's phenomenal job. Nothing but respect for it. thank you very, very much. And this is very important for, this is independent filmmaking, which is what this is, is a very grassroots effort. It takes not only me talking about it, but you guys talking about it and friends and family. then, you you get your friends to come to a screening in Terre Haute or whatever the next one is in Indianapolis. We actually, I had a conversation with a guy who wants to... see if we could get it to play at Christmas Attucks, maybe in their gymnasium or something, or they have a theater. Because Oscar Robertson has a small but important part in the waiting game. And so he played in that place. so I love being able to connect some of our icons and our love affair with basketball into this story and a growing community who know about the film and want to want to do something about it. So I agree with you. think it's just keep talking, keep spreading the word and we're going to get there. so I couldn't be more appreciative of you guys having me on and just talking about the film and basketball is fun. Yeah, we should appreciate you being on Michael and that's so that is the waiting game and for anybody that's watching on YouTube we'll put make sure we have all the ways to to see it in the description and then if you're listening to it we'll make sure that we have the links in the in the show notes so again Michael thanks for being on maybe we'll do this in the future you know once you become you know if you got time for us once you become a super famous star and everything you're like you know then we'll we'll have you on then as well Well, I'll be thrilled to come back anytime. All right. I appreciate it, Michael. If you could, if you'd mind, I'm going to stop the recording. If you could hang tight for just like a minute while it finishes uploading and then we'll be good. Okay. Good job, man. That was fun. It was fun. Yeah. So the store. why were you in Terre Haute for all those years? Did you? you State because my, I won't say too much, but my grades needed to be better. So I went to Indiana Business College to get a business degree there and.